Comments on: Friends of Flagstaff Meeting Update

By: Chris Larson

Chris Larson — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:32:10 +0000

Andrew,

This is really depressing, if it actually comes about. One of the (many) reasons I left Park City, and hence the Wasatch, was the fact that the PC ski areas all expanded and gobbled up the local ski touring.

After backcountry skiing in the Wasatch for the last 30 years, to hear that Days, Silver, etc. would all turn into slack-country is just unbelievable. It would ruin the Wasatch for a lot of people, obviously.

Keep up the good reporting work. This needs to be stopped.

By: Andrew

Andrew — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:45:03 +0000

Hi Tom! Thanks for the insights. It is interesting to see how the backcountry is suddenly becoming valuable now that people have faster and easier ways of accessing it, yet at the same time that access causes problems of its own.

At this stage, it is hard to say what Alta is up to. On one hand, the ownership is supposedly changing over to a younger generation who is more money focused, so perhaps they do have manifest destiny expansion plans. On the other hand, maybe Alta is buying up land because they would rather own it than have somebody else own it. I could see that if a bunch of land came up for sale around our house – we’d be interested in buying as much to preserve what we have, not so much to develop it.

Personally, I think Alta has been very good land stewards for a long time. I like how they have concentrated on upgrading what they have instead of just expanding. But, that could change.

By: tom jungst

tom jungst — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:45:41 +0000

I was just thinking that I have actually experienced sidecountry expansion at Alta one other time. My dad bought 10 acres west of Vail for $12,500 in about 1965, we took the small cabin, split it in two and had a place to stay with rental income. It was a short drive to Vail. In about 1969 he got an offer to “double his money” and sold it for $24,000. Later that summer the cabin was bulldozed; it sat right where the Lionshead Gondola base terminal is today. The next season with his new found wealth dad and I went to see what Dick Bass was up to in Utah, stayed up at Alta, got interlodged and one one beautiful day just my dad and I hiked to the top of Hidden Peak, had lunch and one of the deepest runs of my life. I was 12 and still remember it clearly. He was not convinced there was any opportunity to be had and on our return to Minnesota we looked at 40 acres in small valley west of Vail for the same price. He passed on it and that became Beaver Creek. He put it all in a 30 year note that just matured for a sweet $35K which almost covered the debts he left me after he died in a plane crash 5 years ago.
Tragedy? Hardly. I will never forget that sidecountry experience though or the incredible skiing trips my dad gave me!

By: tom jungst

tom jungst — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:42:35 +0000

Andrew, A very interesting perspective on raising awareness of what is one of the best back country resources in the states. As a Montana skier I have always envied the access in Utah. Due to our long approaches being a backcountry skier forces one to also become a sledhead, to the point that an entire subculture has emerged. Trailheads can be a choking experience as one dons skins and hopelessly contemplates beating skiers with 700cc rocket ships. The solitude of that quiet winter descent you, Mark and I did of the Great One years ago is a thing of the past! Our local area, Bridger Bowl added it’s first new lift in 30 years up Slashman’s, the low angle ramp to our south boundary. Formerly accessed from the base area or by ducking ropes I don’t think many people other than the Bridger patrol nervously contemplated any negative consequences. As the season ends today I think most people enjoyed the expansion and the relief on our “Ridge” that has been loved to death. Opening sidecountry also took pressure off the area but we now see much more serious terrain easily accessed with the only requirement being a transceiver (no pesky shovel or worse a partner). On a powder day we face angry lines of thousands that form before dawn. Saddle Peak is our Superior and I admit with some nostalgia to recalling 3:00 am dawn patrols with Alex; to summit at sunrise; and ski it dead center and through the cliffs. Now I look over at a dozen skiers shredding the peak all at once and it makes me shiver because any old timer can recall what it looks like when the whole peak climaxes as it has nearly every year for 33. I am being way to nostalgic and for Bridger the sidecountry just went a little further sideways but as you mentioned these are tiny mountains and ranges, made even more special when we have returned from bigger ranges of the world. What I see in the eyes of young skiers is they share the same love of the peaks and not a sense of loss that us old guys may have over area expansion. They sure can go sideways fast too!
Still I am sorry for your loss! Guess I better get down there, make a run or two before it is gone.

By: Forrest Gladding

Forrest Gladding — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:55:56 +0000

I am not down with the lift. The backcountry needs to stay over there. Also me and the family are snowboarders. This no snowboarding crap with Alta will effectively shut down LCC to snowboarding. I know everyone hates snowboarders, but screw em. Its a family activity and I am bummed that no one mentions this when they talk about Alta expansion. My two cents.

By: Darlene Batatian

Darlene Batatian — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:41:43 +0000

Andrew,
You did a great presentation. Your slides showing lift-accessed encroachment into backcountry terrain made an excellent point, very clearly presented: The Wasatch is a small range, and we’re getting crammed into an ever-shrinking area.

1) One point that is critical, is the land ownership. Onno says “there will be lots of opportunity for public input”. But, if a lift is located on privately-owned land, rather than Federal lands, there is no trigger for NEPA, or an EIS, or in fact, any public hearings at all. Alta could ram this thing thru with no input. And, if the lands accessed by the lift are not Federal, then there is no nexus for an analysis of impacts to adjacent lands, either.

I am not clear about the jurisdiction for lands located on the north side of SR 210. If its Salt Lake County: the Wasatch Canyons Master Plan is clear regarding NO ski area expansion. Any new area would require an amendment to the Canyons Master Plan, which would be quite an undertaking, and require public input. However that document is currently being revised and I would not be surprised if the ski resorts are lobbying hard to remove that limitation from the new plan.
If the land is under the Town of Alta’s jurisdiction, I have no idea how the Town of Alta would handle such a proposal. FOF should consider presenting your slide show and concerns to the Mayor and planning staff.

2) I think we all understand that avalanche control is a thin argument for this lift proposal.

The SR 210 Transportation Study has an excellent review of avalanche control alternatives and costs. You should all read it,particularly the section on Development of Alternatives. It is available on-line at: http://www2.udot.utah.gov/main/f?p=100:pg:0::::V,T:,1720

UDOT spends hundreds of millions of $$ annually on highway projects, and given the importance of this hwy, I think we should all collectively, along with UDOT AND the ski resorts, be lobbying hard to encourage the legislature to authorize the funds to install permanent avalanche control devices- ie, GasEx and snow sheds.

I’ve got a 10-yr history working in SL County’s land planning arena- 7 years @ SL County’s Geologist, 3 yrs as a consultant specializing in hillside land development/site planning. I helped develop SL County’s avalanche hazard ordinance, with input from many avalanche professionals; reviewed several of the ski area master plans, and am happy to help work on behalf of FOF IF things stay civil. The safety of that road does take precedence. We are very fortunate to have Liam, his experience and judgement are excellent: the canyon safety record speaks for itself. Again, I think we should collectively get behind UDOT and push for funding for permanent control methods.

And, in the interest of full disclosure…. I ski both Alta and the backcountry.

By: Alta grrl

Alta grrl — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 05:14:34 +0000

Has anyone considered that part of the expansion plan might not just include a lift up Flag, but also snowboarder access to this new Alta lift company terrain? Hearing whispers that this is part of the agenda…

By: Jim Manos

Jim Manos — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 04:19:50 +0000

Andrew,thanks for speaking on behalf of our large b/c community. I was unable to attend as I had prior family commitments. Look forward to viewing the presentation on line.
I think what has me feeling defeated is that this looks like another case of “the fattest wallet wins”. Let’s not forget a big part of this Utah economy is the ski industry. Wealthy ski visitors love resort expansion. Resorts aim to please. It seems all resorts strive to see what they can add every year to make them bigger & better than the next guy. I’ve watched Alta fall into this a lot in the last decade. As a result, I don’t ski there anymore unless they’re closed. Do they care? Do they hear 300 b/c skiers concerns? Do we pump money into there business? NO! I think all they care about is the -O- MIGHTY-$$$,just as any big business. They do it at the expence of anyone or any lands. So, will the lift go in? I fear just a matter of time. Not a lot of it either. A bad economy makes it easier. It’s work for someone who needs a job,and the fat cats($$)want a new ski hill. What really burns me is that they are using avi control as an excuse for this lift. I think I’d respect the Alta folks more if they would call it what it is… expansion!
My question is can it be delayed as the expansion on Hidden Peak has been and Mineral Basin was thru pending legal action? Who can we get to fight money with money?

By: Andrew

Andrew — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:05:46 +0000

Hi Che – Those are all excellent points. I think if somebody like Dick Bass were doing this, he wouldn’t make any pretense at all. “Whatcha got here is a lift to some o’ da best backcountry stuff in the world! It’ll make yer socks roll up and down!” I think a big difference here is that Onno/Alta would like to do this, AND have community support for it. In that regard, I think meetings like the one we had are important as helps defray the “Oh, gosh, we didn’t know anyone really cared” attitude that some of these type of projects get rammed through with. I talked to Tom Pollard (Alta Mayor) about this issue last year and he seemed completely uniformed, which hopefully is not the case now.

A real crusher is that so much of the “public land” in the Wasatch is actually private and Utah is a 100% pro property rights state.

By: Che

Che — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:28:46 +0000

Great summary Andrew, and solid job last night. The meeting was a tribute to the efforts of all involved. Just the beginning.

A few ideas:

1. Alta has been busy planning control routes for Flagstaff. I believe Alta has this thing ready to go and will spring it this summer when no one is thinking about skiing or reading the ski blogs. Be ready.

2. Liam gutted Alta’s argument regarding the ability to continue to use artillery. However, if at some time overshooting is no longer allowed, a lift would be an unfortunate inevitability. He clearly stated UDOT is not pushing the lift. The avalanche control ruse is a smokescreen for development.

3. Skier compaction on south-facing slopes is another red herring. Skier compaction is best for destratifying persistent weaknesses. However, these instabilities heal quickly on sunny slopes. Instabilities at the old surface-storm snow interface or within the storm snow account for almost all the hazard above town. Only heavy skier traffic during storms would provide avalanche reduction.

4. Any lift would be for public skiing. It is disingenuous for Alta to let people think otherwise.

5. Any development would require leveling the top of the mountain for an unloading station, and roads and paths cut into the mountain. This is wholesale destruction and environmentally unconcscionable.

6. The question is, as you alluded to last night, what do we want to leave the coming generations?

“We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.” ~ Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac